Julie, what of the argument that the Church does not replace Israel because the Church is Israel? The Church was founded by a Jew who appointed 12 Jewish Apostles and the first converts were Jews, etc. God instituted a new and everlasting covenant with His people, similar to the covenants He had established before, all of which had typologically prefigured this new one. And Christians today are those who are simply still in covenant with Him and they are the Church...
I completely agree that the Church was born from Israel’s root: founded by a Jewish Messiah, built by Jewish apostles, and first filled with Jewish believers.
The grafting language of Romans 11 is beautiful and essential to our theology.
But the distinction I’m making is primarily to those who are using the replacement theology argument to promote anti-semitism and suggest that God has wiped His hands of Israel as a people group.
Daniel 9 makes this distinction explicit when Gabriel tells Daniel this prophecy is “for your people and your holy city.” I know that God does a lot of telescoping prophecy. Where it has multiple fulfillments both in near and ultimate future. So while yes, we (all in Christ) are His people and will live in a Holy city in the new heavens and Earth, there's also a fulfillment in the Abrahamic Covenant that hasn't happened yet.
I’m also NOT arguing for two ways of salvation — only one name saves, and it’s Jesus. And where Paul says that the Jewish hardening is partial and temporary, which means there will be a time when the Gentile / Church age is complete and He will reveal Himself to the remnant of Jews and return on the same Mount he ascended from (in Israel).
God’s covenant with Israel still stands, and the Church (mostly Gentile today) is grafted in alongside, not instead of, the original branches. And once the Messianic age is complete, He will create a new heavens and Earth and we will all be one people in Christ.
The other thing is that if God is faithful to Israel after millennia of rebellion, that's unbelievably reassuring that I am grafted into a foundation that can't be shaken.
Grateful for your engagement... iron sharpens iron ❤️
I think I'm following but I'm not sure and want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you!
We are in agreement that replacement theology promoting anti-semitism is wrong, and really anti-semitism in general. How can we set our hearts against a people for whom the Lord cried out, "How can I give you up, O E'Phraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel!...My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender." (Hos 11:8). Those who love God cannot hate what/who He loves, and that's that in my book.
Where I feel uncertain of my understanding you is whether or not you are claiming that ethnic Israel has a kind of separate covenant fulfillment still in the works...You say there are not two ways of salvation, but you also seem to imply that there hasn't been complete fulfillment for ethnic Israel yet. Is that right?
That's problematic for me, I think, because it seems to imply that they'll receive something else should they choose to reject Christ's salvific act. The purpose of the New and Everlasting Covenant was to fulfill the old. For those who choose to remain in the old, they choose to enter into a covenant that was preparatory in nature, not final. They choose to enter into unfulfillment.
You say we were grafted in alongside, not instead of. I agree re: "not instead of" but In Romans 11, Paul is clear that there are branches that are broken off because of their unbelief...We are not alongside each other.
For those branches we pray unceasingly that they be grafted back on by faith as we were...Because the focus is on the root, not the branches, whoever we might be.
As for unfulfilled promises, Paul states in 2 Cor 1:20 that "all the promises of God find their Yes in him."
But I don't like slinging verses back and forth like a tennis ball, though, and I don't make a habit of doing that. If we get to the heart of it, we're talking about this New Jerusalem, no? A city you think hasn't been given to them yet? Or what exactly do you think is still unfulfilled for them? Are we talking about restoration, new land, dwelling with God, worshiping Him freely, etc.? I call all of this the New Jerusalem...
I agree that we will live in a Holy city in the new heavens and Earth...but what of the New Jerusalem already present?
The New Jerusalem is Christ's Mystical Body, His Bride, and His dwelling with humanity...Paul talks about this at the end of Ephesians 2. End of Ephesians 5 is some of my favorite in all of Scripture *swoon*
Yes, there is eschatological consummation which awaits us, but there is a mystical reality we share already, now, through Him, with Him, and in Him.
I love discussing this with you! What a gift to get your articles and dive in!! <3
I just love your heart and how deeply you love Jesus and the Church. Your words radiate reverence and such a beautiful grasp of the mystical reality we live in as believers. I always feel sharpened when we talk. You have shown me the heart of Jesus whenever we talk.
I think you’re picking up on a tension I’m still personally working through. The covenants (Noah, Abraham, Moses, David) are layered, and I’m not claiming to have a perfect, systematized understanding of how it all fits together. What I do sense from reading Scripture is that God’s faithfulness to Israel isn’t just a past-tense reality.
I don’t mean that as a separate path to salvation or a return to the old covenant.
I mean that He made promises to a people and a land, and I’m holding space for how those might still unfold, in Christ, in ways we may not fully grasp yet.
So I totally respect that we may nuance this differently. But I think we’re anchored in the same awe: that God finishes what He starts in Israel, in the Church, and in us and that every promise finds its “yes” in Jesus.
Truly grateful for your thoughtful engagement and your friendship in the Lord. ❤️
I think we both agree that Israel's story doesn't have an ending yet, and I think we both intuit something about what that ending will look like, if not the whole picture.
I think we are both very moved with compassion for the Jews, for the suffering in those places.
Yesterday I was reflecting on Christ's cry of thirst from the Cross. As God, He expressed God's thirst for man, and as Man, He expressed man's thirst for God.
I see the Israelites thirsting for God so profoundly. If they would only recognize His arms nailed open to receive them and give them all of Himself, and run headlong into that embrace..."If you but knew the gift of God and who is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him and he would have given you living water"...
We will see their fulfillment! In this life or in the one to come, we will see it happen. How much joy and celebration we will all share together...
I always appreciate your nuance. I have lots of thoughts on this but not enough time, so I will boil it down:
1) I'm VERY grateful you are naming The Thing, which is replacement theology. Reading Jesus so deep into the Hebrew Bible is almost akin to erasing it. Maaaaybe Christians who don't know their shabbats from their shaloms should stop telling Jewish people what their own religion means. It's a misunderstanding at best, anti-semitic at worst.
2) Also thank you for separating out Zionism from all of this, and making your own distinction.
3) End-times prophesy is very hard for me to swallow. I make room for miracles, I make room for ancient people seeing the future. But I do not see the evidence the authors skipped over all 2-3,000 years to zero in on today. It's reading tea leaves that is designed to be up for interpretation by whoever reads it. We can absolutely agree to disagree on this, and I can imagine you are taking great care in your studies about it. But the ultimate point:
4) End-times prophecies and Zionism are absolutely linked. You cannot unlink them or ignore one over the other. There are people in power who want to bring about the end times so Jesus comes back, and they are using the Bible as justification for serious war crimes. Jesus would be furious.
5) I have not read the book you recommended yet, so please let me know if there are passages that address any of this. I am open and curious.
6) I don't want to discourage you from speaking what you are learning, because these are hot button topics indeed, and you and I can't be afraid of the blowback from speaking about this. Keep reading, keep seeking, keep posting. I will be too, over here in my part-time agnostic world.
Yes totally hear you. There's an interesting insight about the gap between the 69th and 70th week in the prophecy and the intent behind it, that he goes into in the book.
Thank you for taking the time to post such a thoughtful comment!
Julie, what of the argument that the Church does not replace Israel because the Church is Israel? The Church was founded by a Jew who appointed 12 Jewish Apostles and the first converts were Jews, etc. God instituted a new and everlasting covenant with His people, similar to the covenants He had established before, all of which had typologically prefigured this new one. And Christians today are those who are simply still in covenant with Him and they are the Church...
Thanks Adrienne! Such a thoughtful comment ❤️
I completely agree that the Church was born from Israel’s root: founded by a Jewish Messiah, built by Jewish apostles, and first filled with Jewish believers.
The grafting language of Romans 11 is beautiful and essential to our theology.
But the distinction I’m making is primarily to those who are using the replacement theology argument to promote anti-semitism and suggest that God has wiped His hands of Israel as a people group.
Daniel 9 makes this distinction explicit when Gabriel tells Daniel this prophecy is “for your people and your holy city.” I know that God does a lot of telescoping prophecy. Where it has multiple fulfillments both in near and ultimate future. So while yes, we (all in Christ) are His people and will live in a Holy city in the new heavens and Earth, there's also a fulfillment in the Abrahamic Covenant that hasn't happened yet.
I’m also NOT arguing for two ways of salvation — only one name saves, and it’s Jesus. And where Paul says that the Jewish hardening is partial and temporary, which means there will be a time when the Gentile / Church age is complete and He will reveal Himself to the remnant of Jews and return on the same Mount he ascended from (in Israel).
God’s covenant with Israel still stands, and the Church (mostly Gentile today) is grafted in alongside, not instead of, the original branches. And once the Messianic age is complete, He will create a new heavens and Earth and we will all be one people in Christ.
The other thing is that if God is faithful to Israel after millennia of rebellion, that's unbelievably reassuring that I am grafted into a foundation that can't be shaken.
Grateful for your engagement... iron sharpens iron ❤️
I think I'm following but I'm not sure and want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you!
We are in agreement that replacement theology promoting anti-semitism is wrong, and really anti-semitism in general. How can we set our hearts against a people for whom the Lord cried out, "How can I give you up, O E'Phraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel!...My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender." (Hos 11:8). Those who love God cannot hate what/who He loves, and that's that in my book.
Where I feel uncertain of my understanding you is whether or not you are claiming that ethnic Israel has a kind of separate covenant fulfillment still in the works...You say there are not two ways of salvation, but you also seem to imply that there hasn't been complete fulfillment for ethnic Israel yet. Is that right?
That's problematic for me, I think, because it seems to imply that they'll receive something else should they choose to reject Christ's salvific act. The purpose of the New and Everlasting Covenant was to fulfill the old. For those who choose to remain in the old, they choose to enter into a covenant that was preparatory in nature, not final. They choose to enter into unfulfillment.
You say we were grafted in alongside, not instead of. I agree re: "not instead of" but In Romans 11, Paul is clear that there are branches that are broken off because of their unbelief...We are not alongside each other.
For those branches we pray unceasingly that they be grafted back on by faith as we were...Because the focus is on the root, not the branches, whoever we might be.
As for unfulfilled promises, Paul states in 2 Cor 1:20 that "all the promises of God find their Yes in him."
But I don't like slinging verses back and forth like a tennis ball, though, and I don't make a habit of doing that. If we get to the heart of it, we're talking about this New Jerusalem, no? A city you think hasn't been given to them yet? Or what exactly do you think is still unfulfilled for them? Are we talking about restoration, new land, dwelling with God, worshiping Him freely, etc.? I call all of this the New Jerusalem...
I agree that we will live in a Holy city in the new heavens and Earth...but what of the New Jerusalem already present?
The New Jerusalem is Christ's Mystical Body, His Bride, and His dwelling with humanity...Paul talks about this at the end of Ephesians 2. End of Ephesians 5 is some of my favorite in all of Scripture *swoon*
Yes, there is eschatological consummation which awaits us, but there is a mystical reality we share already, now, through Him, with Him, and in Him.
I love discussing this with you! What a gift to get your articles and dive in!! <3
I just love your heart and how deeply you love Jesus and the Church. Your words radiate reverence and such a beautiful grasp of the mystical reality we live in as believers. I always feel sharpened when we talk. You have shown me the heart of Jesus whenever we talk.
I think you’re picking up on a tension I’m still personally working through. The covenants (Noah, Abraham, Moses, David) are layered, and I’m not claiming to have a perfect, systematized understanding of how it all fits together. What I do sense from reading Scripture is that God’s faithfulness to Israel isn’t just a past-tense reality.
I don’t mean that as a separate path to salvation or a return to the old covenant.
I mean that He made promises to a people and a land, and I’m holding space for how those might still unfold, in Christ, in ways we may not fully grasp yet.
So I totally respect that we may nuance this differently. But I think we’re anchored in the same awe: that God finishes what He starts in Israel, in the Church, and in us and that every promise finds its “yes” in Jesus.
Truly grateful for your thoughtful engagement and your friendship in the Lord. ❤️
I always feel the same way about you.
I think we both agree that Israel's story doesn't have an ending yet, and I think we both intuit something about what that ending will look like, if not the whole picture.
I think we are both very moved with compassion for the Jews, for the suffering in those places.
Yesterday I was reflecting on Christ's cry of thirst from the Cross. As God, He expressed God's thirst for man, and as Man, He expressed man's thirst for God.
I see the Israelites thirsting for God so profoundly. If they would only recognize His arms nailed open to receive them and give them all of Himself, and run headlong into that embrace..."If you but knew the gift of God and who is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him and he would have given you living water"...
We will see their fulfillment! In this life or in the one to come, we will see it happen. How much joy and celebration we will all share together...
Until next time, my dear friend!! <3 <3 <3
I always appreciate your nuance. I have lots of thoughts on this but not enough time, so I will boil it down:
1) I'm VERY grateful you are naming The Thing, which is replacement theology. Reading Jesus so deep into the Hebrew Bible is almost akin to erasing it. Maaaaybe Christians who don't know their shabbats from their shaloms should stop telling Jewish people what their own religion means. It's a misunderstanding at best, anti-semitic at worst.
2) Also thank you for separating out Zionism from all of this, and making your own distinction.
3) End-times prophesy is very hard for me to swallow. I make room for miracles, I make room for ancient people seeing the future. But I do not see the evidence the authors skipped over all 2-3,000 years to zero in on today. It's reading tea leaves that is designed to be up for interpretation by whoever reads it. We can absolutely agree to disagree on this, and I can imagine you are taking great care in your studies about it. But the ultimate point:
4) End-times prophecies and Zionism are absolutely linked. You cannot unlink them or ignore one over the other. There are people in power who want to bring about the end times so Jesus comes back, and they are using the Bible as justification for serious war crimes. Jesus would be furious.
5) I have not read the book you recommended yet, so please let me know if there are passages that address any of this. I am open and curious.
6) I don't want to discourage you from speaking what you are learning, because these are hot button topics indeed, and you and I can't be afraid of the blowback from speaking about this. Keep reading, keep seeking, keep posting. I will be too, over here in my part-time agnostic world.
Yes totally hear you. There's an interesting insight about the gap between the 69th and 70th week in the prophecy and the intent behind it, that he goes into in the book.
Thank you for taking the time to post such a thoughtful comment!